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	<title>Comments on: 9:46-10:54 p.m. Hunting down terrorist deer</title>
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	<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/</link>
	<description>What you know is only the tip of the bandstand...</description>
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		<title>By: greatergrafton</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-770</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[greatergrafton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 03:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-770</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As its been noted, the state rep -- in fact anyone -- has the right to amend anything at TM. The only difference here is this is someone with a bit more legislative experience than most (and, as I noted, I admired the technique, if not the intent. It was almost as sweet a move as the stealth run that brought power plants into Bellingham).

I&#039;m still getting to the storm water drama -- I feel like I already lost too much of my life to that Powerpoint presentation and hate to relive it. But a good portion of that is already written up, just needs to be finished.

And stop looking at me, Clemente. Between growing up next to land used by hunters (we collected discarded casings and the occasional bullet), dodging hunters in Gardner and the stalker with the (alleged) rifle in his trunk , I think I&#039;ve earned my hunting snark.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As its been noted, the state rep &#8212; in fact anyone &#8212; has the right to amend anything at TM. The only difference here is this is someone with a bit more legislative experience than most (and, as I noted, I admired the technique, if not the intent. It was almost as sweet a move as the stealth run that brought power plants into Bellingham).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still getting to the storm water drama &#8212; I feel like I already lost too much of my life to that Powerpoint presentation and hate to relive it. But a good portion of that is already written up, just needs to be finished.</p>
<p>And stop looking at me, Clemente. Between growing up next to land used by hunters (we collected discarded casings and the occasional bullet), dodging hunters in Gardner and the stalker with the (alleged) rifle in his trunk , I think I&#8217;ve earned my hunting snark.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-769</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-769</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Clemente...I&#039;m going to respond to you on this thread versus the natalie one.  

Exactly as you said, the Town approved those by-laws that you allude to after a committee put them forth to the public at TM.  That is exactly how effective municipal legislation should work in my opinion (and now that I think about it that is exactly what Christ LeMay was saying in his smackdown earlier in the night).  This process makes it irrelevant whether it’s a small committee or a large committee, a bad committee or a good committee.  The problem here is that nobody - including the Conservation Committee - had any legitimate chance to do the research to determine if hunting was viable (Chris LaPoints’ telephone call was slightly re-assuring with regards to the ½ mill of funding…but was not sufficient for the entirety of a 2+ mil purchase).  In hindsight, it seems pretty obvious that the ConCom should have been prepared before hand.  Maybe it’s the role of the Moderator to step in and explain that an Amendment like this is circumventing the process?  I’m guessing Peterson could have asked the question directly to ConCom prior to TM.  That all said, and apparently in contrast to the majority of TM members, the ConCom should have the right to clearly evaluate the merits of hunting by talking to the neighbors, talking to interested hunters, walking the property, and really vetting out the notion of hunting’s impact.  If the entire neighborhood starts hollering and the Pell family says they aren&#039;t comfortable with hunting while they harvest the trees for 10 years...well, then the ConCom should have the opportunity to exclude hunting.  Especially because this includision could jeopardize the whole purchase.  But now, we are effectively locked in because of an Amendment that in reality was a referendum on whether or not hunting was good for humanity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clemente&#8230;I&#8217;m going to respond to you on this thread versus the natalie one.  </p>
<p>Exactly as you said, the Town approved those by-laws that you allude to after a committee put them forth to the public at TM.  That is exactly how effective municipal legislation should work in my opinion (and now that I think about it that is exactly what Christ LeMay was saying in his smackdown earlier in the night).  This process makes it irrelevant whether it’s a small committee or a large committee, a bad committee or a good committee.  The problem here is that nobody &#8211; including the Conservation Committee &#8211; had any legitimate chance to do the research to determine if hunting was viable (Chris LaPoints’ telephone call was slightly re-assuring with regards to the ½ mill of funding…but was not sufficient for the entirety of a 2+ mil purchase).  In hindsight, it seems pretty obvious that the ConCom should have been prepared before hand.  Maybe it’s the role of the Moderator to step in and explain that an Amendment like this is circumventing the process?  I’m guessing Peterson could have asked the question directly to ConCom prior to TM.  That all said, and apparently in contrast to the majority of TM members, the ConCom should have the right to clearly evaluate the merits of hunting by talking to the neighbors, talking to interested hunters, walking the property, and really vetting out the notion of hunting’s impact.  If the entire neighborhood starts hollering and the Pell family says they aren&#8217;t comfortable with hunting while they harvest the trees for 10 years&#8230;well, then the ConCom should have the opportunity to exclude hunting.  Especially because this includision could jeopardize the whole purchase.  But now, we are effectively locked in because of an Amendment that in reality was a referendum on whether or not hunting was good for humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Clemente</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clemente]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael,
Don&#039;t consider yourself new, I moved to the states the same time you did.  Sorry about saying a few on a committe have passed a by-law I should say the Town had adopted what the few on the committee have presented, as I am sure you already know it&#039;s how By-Laws are passed.
One that I know for sure and i make reference too is the Wet Land protection by-law passed some many moons ago.  Perhaps GreaterGrafton could shed some light on this?  I am sure she could be more objective than I.  As you can tell I am now becoming more bias towards any new by-law needing to be passed.  Now that i think of it, did the DPW try to pass a no parking by-law that I think already exists? 
All this typing and reading on this blog has made me parched Yikes! it&#039;s time for muchas cervezas frías y el fútbol.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br />
Don&#8217;t consider yourself new, I moved to the states the same time you did.  Sorry about saying a few on a committe have passed a by-law I should say the Town had adopted what the few on the committee have presented, as I am sure you already know it&#8217;s how By-Laws are passed.<br />
One that I know for sure and i make reference too is the Wet Land protection by-law passed some many moons ago.  Perhaps GreaterGrafton could shed some light on this?  I am sure she could be more objective than I.  As you can tell I am now becoming more bias towards any new by-law needing to be passed.  Now that i think of it, did the DPW try to pass a no parking by-law that I think already exists?<br />
All this typing and reading on this blog has made me parched Yikes! it&#8217;s time for muchas cervezas frías y el fútbol.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Clemente, 
As a relatively new resident (7 yrs), I&#039;m curious of specific examples when &quot;a few on a committee&quot; have made &quot;stricter by-laws than what is necessary&quot;.  I&#039;m not saying there aren&#039;t, just curious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clemente,<br />
As a relatively new resident (7 yrs), I&#8217;m curious of specific examples when &#8220;a few on a committee&#8221; have made &#8220;stricter by-laws than what is necessary&#8221;.  I&#8217;m not saying there aren&#8217;t, just curious.</p>
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		<title>By: Clemente</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clemente]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Giggles and Melissa,
Not to beat a dead horse or a deer for that matter, Mr. Peterson and everyone who is a town resident has a right to do as they please at Town Meeting when it comes to Articles.  That is the democratic process of this town.  
People who have lived in this town for a long time have experienced when a few on a committee have done in the past to make stricter by-laws than what is necessary.  Not to say that ConCom would have restricted the &quot;passive recreation&quot; on the Pell land, but again to my point, they have gone way too far in the past and that is why items like what Mr. Peterson and other town residents bring this up at Town Meeting.
Our ConCom agent does a good job with what she has to work with.  And one more thing and I promise not to should like I am preaching because I am looking directly at GreaterGrafton when I am typing this, Our CPC consultant Mr. Christopher LaPoint did bring the “point” (sorry for the pun) of passive recreation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Giggles and Melissa,<br />
Not to beat a dead horse or a deer for that matter, Mr. Peterson and everyone who is a town resident has a right to do as they please at Town Meeting when it comes to Articles.  That is the democratic process of this town.<br />
People who have lived in this town for a long time have experienced when a few on a committee have done in the past to make stricter by-laws than what is necessary.  Not to say that ConCom would have restricted the &#8220;passive recreation&#8221; on the Pell land, but again to my point, they have gone way too far in the past and that is why items like what Mr. Peterson and other town residents bring this up at Town Meeting.<br />
Our ConCom agent does a good job with what she has to work with.  And one more thing and I promise not to should like I am preaching because I am looking directly at GreaterGrafton when I am typing this, Our CPC consultant Mr. Christopher LaPoint did bring the “point” (sorry for the pun) of passive recreation.</p>
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		<title>By: Giggles</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-761</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Giggles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Melissa is right, Mr. Peterson has no right to try circumvent the process.  In the end, his amendment didn&#039;t matter, but he didn&#039;t know that at the time.   If you want to hunt, go to the back woods of Maine, not a small property that people are happily picking out Christmas trees and hiking on. And why did the Moderator let that go on and on without the definition of the phrase &quot;passive recreation&quot; not spelled out by the Conservation Agent who was sitting right there.  That would have saved us an hour and I would have been home in bed before midnight.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melissa is right, Mr. Peterson has no right to try circumvent the process.  In the end, his amendment didn&#8217;t matter, but he didn&#8217;t know that at the time.   If you want to hunt, go to the back woods of Maine, not a small property that people are happily picking out Christmas trees and hiking on. And why did the Moderator let that go on and on without the definition of the phrase &#8220;passive recreation&#8221; not spelled out by the Conservation Agent who was sitting right there.  That would have saved us an hour and I would have been home in bed before midnight.</p>
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		<title>By: Clemente</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-760</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clemente]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-760</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As for Mr. Peterson’s comments last night, he and like everyone else at town meeting has the right to voice their opinion(s) towards the ARTICLES and or make amendments at town meeting.  
To say whether or not he is an expert at the process and he used the lack of attendance to his point, we always could have voted down the amendment, and just voted on the purchase.  Personally we should be thankful that we have the ability to hunt fish in this small town called Brookline, oh sorry.. ahemm- &quot;Grafton&quot;.
ConCom here in Grafton has done the worst possible job in trying to involve the public with its objectives, we do need the storm water by-law, but why does ConCom feel they need to re-write and be stricter then what the EPA set as guidelines?  They did this before with the wetland protection by-law several years ago when ConCom committee passed measures that became more restrictive then what was called for.  I would like to know how much they spent in Town Counsel and consultant fees    perhaps they should take lessons from the School Building Committee and learn how to involve the public, perhaps listen to the public and not go on tangents and make the whole town watch 30 minutes slide show.  Just goes to show, the “ConCom’s dog just don’t hunt”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for Mr. Peterson’s comments last night, he and like everyone else at town meeting has the right to voice their opinion(s) towards the ARTICLES and or make amendments at town meeting.<br />
To say whether or not he is an expert at the process and he used the lack of attendance to his point, we always could have voted down the amendment, and just voted on the purchase.  Personally we should be thankful that we have the ability to hunt fish in this small town called Brookline, oh sorry.. ahemm- &#8220;Grafton&#8221;.<br />
ConCom here in Grafton has done the worst possible job in trying to involve the public with its objectives, we do need the storm water by-law, but why does ConCom feel they need to re-write and be stricter then what the EPA set as guidelines?  They did this before with the wetland protection by-law several years ago when ConCom committee passed measures that became more restrictive then what was called for.  I would like to know how much they spent in Town Counsel and consultant fees    perhaps they should take lessons from the School Building Committee and learn how to involve the public, perhaps listen to the public and not go on tangents and make the whole town watch 30 minutes slide show.  Just goes to show, the “ConCom’s dog just don’t hunt”</p>
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		<title>By: greatergrafton</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[greatergrafton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 00:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, I loved that woman in the back row. I&#039;m writing her in for state rep.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I loved that woman in the back row. I&#8217;m writing her in for state rep.</p>
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		<title>By: Bambi of Pell Farm</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bambi of Pell Farm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t it interesting that the only conservation land in town where hunting is prohibited is on North St.  Hmmm...Rep. Peterson&#039;s neighborhood.

I do agree with Michael that this could&#039;ve been brought forth at a better time, researched and presented at town meeting.  Also, there was a comment that passive recreation includes hunting so did we really need to specify it?  Should we have also specified hiking, bird watching etc?  Without getting into a hunting debate, I feel that encouraging passive recreation, showing a powerpoint with children skipping along a wooded trail and sunlight filtering through trees does not seem so pleasant when imagined along with a hunter and an implement intended to kill things lurking nearby.

As for the woman in the back row who had no use for a microphone since we &#039;could all hear her just fine&#039;...you go, grrrl!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it interesting that the only conservation land in town where hunting is prohibited is on North St.  Hmmm&#8230;Rep. Peterson&#8217;s neighborhood.</p>
<p>I do agree with Michael that this could&#8217;ve been brought forth at a better time, researched and presented at town meeting.  Also, there was a comment that passive recreation includes hunting so did we really need to specify it?  Should we have also specified hiking, bird watching etc?  Without getting into a hunting debate, I feel that encouraging passive recreation, showing a powerpoint with children skipping along a wooded trail and sunlight filtering through trees does not seem so pleasant when imagined along with a hunter and an implement intended to kill things lurking nearby.</p>
<p>As for the woman in the back row who had no use for a microphone since we &#8216;could all hear her just fine&#8217;&#8230;you go, grrrl!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://greatergrafton.com/2008/10/21/946-hunting-down-terrorist-deer/#comment-735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greatergrafton.wordpress.com/?p=1153#comment-735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not an expert either, and that&#039;s exactly why this Town Meeting debate should not have happened.  The Conservation Committee is the expert, and they have the right to determine what impacts the ecosytem in a non-passive way.  That is the most important point in regards to what happened with Rep Peterson&#039;s Amendment.  This turned into a referendum about the merits of hunting, just as it is now on this blog, and that shouldn&#039;t be the case. 

Everytime you walk into the woods you leave a non-passive impact on the ecosystem in some way.  Its a question of how significant an impact (many would argue that mountain biking leaves a far greater impact than hunting) and whether you leave a non-sustainable imprint on the land.  And when you consider the overall impact of regulated killing/hunting/removal of deer and other animals caused by hunters, the impact is sustainable.  Also, hunters traditionally are exceptionally good environmentalists (they don&#039;t trash the place) because its obviously in their self-interst to preserve the integrity of land.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not an expert either, and that&#8217;s exactly why this Town Meeting debate should not have happened.  The Conservation Committee is the expert, and they have the right to determine what impacts the ecosytem in a non-passive way.  That is the most important point in regards to what happened with Rep Peterson&#8217;s Amendment.  This turned into a referendum about the merits of hunting, just as it is now on this blog, and that shouldn&#8217;t be the case. </p>
<p>Everytime you walk into the woods you leave a non-passive impact on the ecosystem in some way.  Its a question of how significant an impact (many would argue that mountain biking leaves a far greater impact than hunting) and whether you leave a non-sustainable imprint on the land.  And when you consider the overall impact of regulated killing/hunting/removal of deer and other animals caused by hunters, the impact is sustainable.  Also, hunters traditionally are exceptionally good environmentalists (they don&#8217;t trash the place) because its obviously in their self-interst to preserve the integrity of land.</p>
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